For Science Students

[teachyourself]

Oh really, then can you post the picture of the common ancestor on this thread because i wanna see how he looks like .... i want proof

1.Universal genetic code reading
2. Fossils transitioning
3.Genetic similarity between organisms
4.Similarities of embroys between species
5. The miller-urey experiment
6. proto-cell i mentioned earlier

that is sufficient evidence for me, if it is not for you then that is entirely your problem

so through experiments and probably more fossils more evidence will be established

 

[teachyourself]

“The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if you believe in God and the Last Day; and let a party of believers witness their punishment” (Q.XXIV-2,3)

The Prophet (PBUH) punished adulterers by stoning them to death. The same penalty was applied by the caliphs after him.

Islam, however, does not condemn anyone to death by stoning unless adultery is proven beyond any doubt, because when the adulterers are married, they have no genuine justification for committing adultery. Fornicators of both sexes are penalized by flogging only and are not stoned to death.

The Prophet (PBUH) says, “stop inflicting the prescribed penalties when you have doubts”. A dubious crime in contrast to an obvious one, is worthy of commutation. The punishment for adultery or fornication can only be applied if four valid witnesses declare that they have actually seen the act, otherwise there is no penalty.

Knowing that Islam prohibits such invasion of privacy as spying and forced entry, proof of adultery, as required by Islam, becomes almost impossible, unless the crime is flagrantly committed in public. Such a public display would mean that the persons involved are openly propagating lewdness and debasing public morals; and every citizen of sound judgment should consider the Islamic penalty for such a crime justly merited by the offenders.

Islam checks false accusations by prescribing the penalty of flogging for anyone who accuses man or woman of adultery or fornication and does not produce four witnesses to support this charge.

“And those who launch a charge against chaste woman, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their evidence ever after, for such persons are wicked transgressor; unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful” (Q.XXIV-4,5)

This penalty discourages irresponsible accusation which would cause familial discord and it also checks the propagation of wicked rumors which lead to slander and defamation of character.

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qurân that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Quran, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the longest verse in the Qurân and deals with financial transactions. It says:

"Oh! ye who believe!
When ye deal with each other,
in transactions involving future obligation
in a fixed period of time
reduce them to writing and get two witnesses
out of your own men and if there are not two men,
then a man and two women, such as ye choose,
for witnesses so that if one of them errs
the other can remind her."
[Al-Qurân 2:282]

This verse of the Qurân deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qurân is Tazil which means confused or to err. Many have wrongly translated this word as â to forget. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder, two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. There are about five verses in the Qurân which speak about witnesses without specifying man or woman.

While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qurân says:

"Oh you who believe!
When death approaches any of you,
(take) witnesses among yourself when making bequests."
[Al-Qurân 5:106]

two just persons of your own (brotherhood)
or other from outside if you are journeying
through the earth and the chance of death befalls you."
[Al-Qurân 65:2]

Two persons endued with justice in case of divorce.

"Four witnesses are required
in case of charge against chaste women,
[Al-Qurân 24:4]

There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness:

"And those who launch a charge
against their spouses, and have (in support)
no evidence but their own -
their solitary evidence can be received."
[Al-Qurân 24:6]

This is wrong, a girl is Islam has a full right to marry when ever she wants and with who ever she likes, and no can force her to do anything....the marriage will then obviously be after she attains puberty.

if you cannot see the monstrosity of killing some one for having sex with someone they are not married to or killing someone upon the basis of their sexual orientation or for changing their religion, then there is no point in arguing with you

and public morals? you talk about public morals after saying it is okay to kill people for the above reasons? whether a person is walking down the street naked or having sex in public, it is no business of anyone to tell those people to stop doing that, let alone having laws against it and killing them for it

girls can attain puberty as early as 9 or 11, what kind of a monster would have sex with a child at the age of 9 or 11, what kind of a god can allow such a crime

as for the right to marry, a girl needs a guardian to be present for a marriage to proceed, so ultimately the choice of a girl is pointless if the guardian does not agree

but then again a religion that thinks it is progressive and modern because it "progressed" from female infanticide to marrying underage girls, there isn't much hope it now is there?

and how dare does anyone tell a woman/girl that her judgement is inferior to that of a man in ANY situation? only mysoginistic monsters would do such a thing

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

the idea of atoms was as you pointed out is old, known to people, muhammad was a trader/merchant, so speaking to different people and getting different ideas was not to difficult and considering he was not stupid (though un-educated) does not mean that he could not think up of anything smaller than atom to support the claim of an all knowing deity, i have read/analysed the quran, there is no part of it as a miracle, if you want to see the quran as a miracle go ahead no one is stopping you

This is only one of the many examples, u want some more
first of all let me tell you The Quran is consistent with external realities, and it is also consistent internally. It is the nature of the works of men, be they scientists, philosophers, sages or mystics to contain inconsistencies and contradictions. This cannot be so with the Divine Revelation as the Quran states: "Have they not carefully considered the Quran, had it been from other than Allah they would have found many in-discrepancies in it."


"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them. And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe."

[Noble Quran 21:30]

This verse clearly mentions the common origin of the universe, a fact that was not discovered until forty years ago with the advent of nuclear physics. The separation seems to refer to what the scientists call the "Big Bang". Also, all living things are composed of protoplasm, which consists of 80-85% water.


"Then He rose over towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: 'Come willingly or unwillingly.' They both said: 'We come willingly.'"

[Noble Quran 41:11]


The word smoke describes accurately the primeval state of the universe, which was composed of a hot gaseous mass, with particles moving vigorously, just as in smoke. From this the stars, planets and the earth were formed.

"The heaven, We have built it with power, verily We are expanding it.'

[Noble Quran 51:47]

It is an accepted fact that we are living in an expanding universe. "Allah is the one who created the night and day, the sun and moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion." The Arabic word referring to a movement with self-propelled motion is the verb sahabah (yasbahuna in the text). It implies a motion that comes from the body in question. If it takes place in water, it is to swim; it is to move by the action of one's own legs' if it takes place on land. For movement that occurs in space it would mean "to rotate". The sun is actually in orbit, not around the earth but around the centre of the galaxy, so there is no contradiction, since the Quran does not specify the Sun's orbit.


"Have you not seen how Allah merges the night into the day and the day into the night?"

[Noble Quran 31:29]

and "He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night."

[Noble Quran 39:5]

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

if you cannot see the monstrosity of killing some one for having sex with someone they are not married to or killing someone upon the basis of their sexual orientation or for changing their religion, then there is no point in arguing with you

and public morals? you talk about public morals after saying it is okay to kill people for the above reasons? whether a person is walking down the street naked or having sex in public, it is no business of anyone to tell those people to stop doing that, let alone having laws against it and killing them for it

girls can attain puberty as early as 9 or 11, what kind of a monster would have sex with a child at the age of 9 or 11, what kind of a god can allow such a crime

as for the right to marry, a girl needs a guardian to be present for a marriage to proceed, so ultimately the choice of a girl is pointless if the guardian does not agree

but then again a religion that thinks it is progressive and modern because it "progressed" from female infanticide to marrying underage girls, there isn't much hope it now is there?

and how dare does anyone tell a woman/girl that her judgement is inferior to that of a man in ANY situation? only mysoginistic monsters would do such a thing

You have given little thought to what i have said, i want you read what ever i have written again and this time think heavy and reconsider your thoughts

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

subatomic particles can be seen using the appropriate equipment not seen in the traditional sense but they can be measured, detected, tested, etc
so there is evidence for sub-atomic particles, none for god

Science has produced theories based on empirical evidence that leads to statements about things which we can not see. An example of this is the existence of protons, neutrons and electrons. The existence of these is not disputed, even though they can not be seen, because their existence is believed in on the basis of what is visible and observable. The Quran explains the existence of unseen realities, and the fact of their being unseen does not make them any less real. The descriptions in the Quran of this unseen reality is one of the things that mark it for special attention.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

different wavelengths

also before making such assumptions for hypothetical scenarios you must realise that it can have a LOT of implications for a species, for example most people think snakes are deaf but they just have a different system to sense their environment through vibrations, without such a system snakes would probably not have survived, so when you say "what if we were deaf?" and do not provide another means to sense the environment you pretty much put the entire species at the risk of having died off, let alone evolving to the extent to become scientists

It is not a big deal to imagine it that way , even if none of us had the ability to hear we would still be living, the air will still be going in and out of your lungs, Yes evolving to the extent to become scientists would require more time, and eventually we would be able to understand and deduce laws but will we be able to prove sound? let alone the vibrations and the different wavelengths won't tell us really less. It would be really hard for us to define what sound really is since no had experienced it..... but sound exists ....similarly God exists ....science is just not capable of proving it and how will it even if it gets to see got would u then say" hey hang on God i want to do some nuclear testing on you just to make sure that you really are that powerful so as to attain the status of being God"

 

[teachyourself]

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them. And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe."

[Noble Quran 21:30]

This verse clearly mentions the common origin of the universe, a fact that was not discovered until forty years ago with the advent of nuclear physics. The separation seems to refer to what the scientists call the "Big Bang". Also, all living things are composed of protoplasm, which consists of 80-85% water.

nothing was joined together at the beginning things were formed out of nothing read the description of the big bang again, this joined together concept has been previously mentioned in other religions in different forms, do your research

and the idea of living things made of water is firstly incorrect because life is carbon based, no carbon no life, just because water has greater amount does not mean it is what life is made of, without carbon there would have been no life, secondly the notion that life was made out of water had been around for many years, do your research

"Then He rose over towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: 'Come willingly or unwillingly.' They both said: 'We come willingly.'"

[Noble Quran 41:11]


The word smoke describes accurately the primeval state of the universe, which was composed of a hot gaseous mass, with particles moving vigorously, just as in smoke. From this the stars, planets and the earth were formed.

again read the formation of the universe and cosmology in religions

also mention the other verses

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

so the world was made before the heavens? really?

all muhammad did was imagine the sky and the earth being together, borrowing from existing religions, then modifying it to what he saw fit, nothing more

"The heaven, We have built it with power, verily We are expanding it.'

[Noble Quran 51:47]

It is an accepted fact that we are living in an expanding universe. "Allah is the one who created the night and day, the sun and moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion." The Arabic word referring to a movement with self-propelled motion is the verb sahabah (yasbahuna in the text). It implies a motion that comes from the body in question. If it takes place in water, it is to swim; it is to move by the action of one's own legs' if it takes place on land. For movement that occurs in space it would mean "to rotate". The sun is actually in orbit, not around the earth but around the centre of the galaxy, so there is no contradiction, since the Quran does not specify the Sun's orbit.

[Noble Quran 39:5]

the spreading and expanding of the heavens and earth has been mentioned in other religions, nothing new, again just a modification,

another translation of the same verse
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof). (51:47)
so here there is no mention of expansion, just like religion make a vague claim without details so that a wide net can be cast and anyone can interpret it as whatever they like claiming miracles, it is this same vagueness of religion that allows heinous acts, this is the problem with religion. It promotes irrationality by demanding to believe in a deity without any evidence and punishes any questioning as blasphemy, then it prescribes how to act in life and does it ever so vaguely (while claiming to be clear, cur and simple), allowing for irrational minds to do whatever satisfies their personal whims and fantasies. The murderers, rapists, pillagers and enemies of reason who claim their interpretation is correct (and their interpretation cannot be proven wrong really), apologists who claim they are right (while being equally misogynistic, homophobic, intolerant bigots); and in the end who screws up the world? Just a handful of neighborhood idiots who use religion to justify their murder and destruction, all the while spineless and at times sympathetic apologists of that religion just stand by, yet, people just simply cannot see the pointless existence of religion, how an all knowing deity could leave so much of his word open to interpretation and not be able to foresee unnecessary violence and death is anyone guess. Why would an all-powerful deity play with the lives of mere mortals under the pretext of a test while not being able to clarify the problem of predestination and free-will? Well, considering that deity is a pedophilia prescribing, homophobic, misogynistic, sadomasochistic and a totalitarian blood craving, murderous lunatic and not to mention a racist entity, it should not be too much of a surprise. And what prevents people from being able to see this? The very dogmatic irrationality the religion encourages.

as for the orbit it was known that orbits existed nothing new again

"Have you not seen how Allah merges the night into the day and the day into the night?"

[Noble Quran 31:29]

and "He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night."

[Noble Quran 39:5]

sigh!! anyone can see the day turn to night, vice versa

all of the scientific miracles in islam have been proven to be wrong you are simply not reading the other side, complete your research

 

[teachyourself]

You have given little thought to what i have said, i want you read what ever i have written again and this time think heavy and reconsider your thoughts

there is nothing to think about

justify the punishment of sexual acts, justify the monstrous act of having sex with a child as soon as she hits puberty, justify the denial of the right to a girl to choose a spouse without a guardian's approval, justify the denial of people's right to their sexual orientation, justify the denial of same-sex marriage, justify the punishment of death for changing one's religion

because this is what islam does and there is no justification for it

 

[teachyourself]

Science has produced theories based on empirical evidence that leads to statements about things which we can not see. An example of this is the existence of protons, neutrons and electrons. The existence of these is not disputed, even though they can not be seen, because their existence is believed in on the basis of what is visible and observable. The Quran explains the existence of unseen realities, and the fact of their being unseen does not make them any less real. The descriptions in the Quran of this unseen reality is one of the things that mark it for special attention.

the quran does not mention sub-atomic particles specifically just things smaller than atoms ... big deal

the presence of sub-atomic particles is not a belief there is evidence for their existence, not everything has to be visible to the naked eye

 

[teachyourself]

It is not a big deal to imagine it that way , even if none of us had the ability to hear we would still be living, the air will still be going in and out of your lungs, Yes evolving to the extent to become scientists would require more time, and eventually we would be able to understand and deduce laws but will we be able to prove sound? let alone the vibrations and the different wavelengths won't tell us really less. It would be really hard for us to define what sound really is since no had experienced it..... but sound exists ....similarly God exists ....science is just not capable of proving it and how will it even if it gets to see got would u then say" hey hang on God i want to do some nuclear testing on you just to make sure that you really are that powerful so as to attain the status of being God"

what? the sense of hearing is not important? you have no understanding of biology let alone evolutionary biology, read about the evolution of hearing

EDIT - forgot to add this
the comparison of sound being detected with clear evidence and not being understood entirely due to deafness with something not being detected in the first place i.e god, is wrong
even if your logical arguments would have held, there still would be no evidence of god

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

How foolish of me to ask you to show me the picture of common ancestor, after all you weren't even born when he was there .....but i have learned to reason everything so don't u mind if i ask

1.Universal genetic code reading

So

2. Fossils transitioning

So

3.Genetic similarity between organisms

So

4.Similarities of embroys between species

So

5. The miller-urey experiment

So

6. proto-cell i mentioned earlier

So what?

same goes for evolution in-fact evolution is an accepted fact,

and if you are so sure of that ancestor, why doesn't science attempt to sketch a picture of it, just so that the humanity gets a little bit of idea of how their ancestor look like.or should we just forget the past or we assume that science in unable to collect enough proof and its whole just an idea
and was it Darwin who suggested this idea?

 

[teachyourself]

How foolish of me to ask you to show me the picture of common ancestor, after all you weren't even born when he was there .....but i have learned to reason everything so don't u mind if i ask

So

So

So

So

So

So what?

and if you are so sure of that ancestor, why doesn't science attempt to sketch a picture of it, just so that the humanity gets a little bit of idea of how their ancestor look like.or should we just forget the past or we assume that science in unable to collect enough proof and its whole just an idea
and was it Darwin who suggested this idea?

if the scientific evidence does not convince you it is your problem, however the earliest common ancestor is not literally just one single cell but one single celled TYPE of a cell with a ring shaped DNA, do your research, you can google this stuff within a few seconds, if you read enough about evolution you will understand that single celled organisms were formed from amino acids and fatty-acid vesicles and chelators, as depicted in the miller-urey experiment and the proto-cell experiment (check the links in the first message), also if you read further into the the above points (to which you have replied "So") these points will give you sufficient evidence, whether you are convinced or not is entirely your problem

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

and the idea of living things made of water is firstly incorrect because life is carbon based, no carbon no life, just because water has greater amount does not mean it is what life is made of, without carbon there would have been no life, secondly the notion that life was made out of water had been around for many years, do your research

Who do u think you r fooling? Water is more important than carbon...do your research. Why when we are looking for water to find life? Why are we looking for water on mars so as to find life there.
Where there is water there is life? Y don't u breath in carbon and why do u drink water even

 

[teachyourself]

Who do u think you r fooling? Water is more important than carbon...do your research. Why when we are looking for water to find life? Why are we looking for water on mars so as to find life there.
Where there is water there is life? Y don't u breath in carbon and why do u drink water even

we are made of carbon, carbon based life forms, how on earth do you not know this???!!!!

also check extremophiles water is not too necessary for life to exist

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

if the scientific evidence does not convince you it is your problem, however the earliest common ancestor is not literally just one single cell but one single celled TYPE of a cell with a ring shaped DNA, do your research, you can google this stuff within a few seconds, if you read enough about evolution you will understand that single celled organisms were formed from amino acids and fatty-acid vesicles and chelators, as depicted in the miller-urey experiment and the proto-cell experiment (check the links in the first message), also if you read further into the the above points (to which you have replied "So") these points will give you sufficient evidence, whether you are convinced or not is entirely your problem

what if now i tell you that a part of the theory of evolution was already mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago
t
he long time in which humanity didn't exist:

Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent
^Here, the Quran informs us that Allah increases the complexity in creation (read the beginning of the verse). Not only that, the title of this chapter is called "The originator". So by mere juxtaposition the Quran makes an extraordinary point! Allah originates the creation and then increases its complexity. This mirrors the origin and evolution of life. Life was originated and through time it gets more complex. Right after this verse, the Quran speaks about human creation and natural phenomena. This seems to be an interesting correlation. This verse asserts that Allah increases the complexity of creatures. This verse points us to an example of how Allah adds ‘wings’ to the angels however he pleases. It is important to note that ‘wings’ is probably metaphorical as it refers to a thing needed to fly. The basic idea in this verse is that Allah increases or adds complexity to his creations as he wills. One can ask the question, why did the Quran mention this and what point is the Quran trying to make? The point this verse is trying to make is clear, Allah creations go through a process of increasing in complexity. Further, the title of that chapter is “The Originator”. This further brings you to an understanding that Allah originates creation and increases complexity to creation. This is in line with the basic idea of the evolution of life. Life on earth originated and gained complexity.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

(Quran 29:20) Say: "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated.

^This verse is a direct commandment to humans telling us to travel the Earth and observe how creation was brought forth. The funny thing is Darwin unknowingly followed the commandment in this verse and discovered how (the mechanism) creation formed. This verse implies that by travelling through the Earth, you would see the mechanism of creation! Darwin has unknowingly followed that commandment and has discovered how creation began, from his travels he published a revolutionary book titled “The Origin of Species”.

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

Though a great majority of people, regardless of their religion, consider Darwin as the originator of the idea of evolution, Shanavas reminds us that Darwin (1809-1882) and his grandfather Erasmus Darwin were influenced by the work of Muslim scientists who lived centuries before them. For instance, Dr. Shanavas quotes from John William Draper (1812-1883), first president of American Chemical Society, a contemporary of Darwin, and a former president of New York University summarizes the deliberately induced academic amnesia in the West. Draper acknowledges the fact that Muslims described the theory of evolution in their schools centuries before the West did:

“I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancor and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever.”(Draper, John William. The Intellectual Development of Europe, p. 42.)

 

[Ayesha Asif333]

we are made of carbon, carbon based life forms, how on earth do you not know this???!!!!

also check extremophiles water is not too necessary for life to exist

But we all made up of water too, do you expect Allah to mention in his book the word 'carbon'. this is a man made made word and quran is not a book of science and Allah has made it easier for all his slaves to understand things, thats why both literate and illiterate and get its meaning

the whole verse was
(Quran 21:30) Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the Earth were of one connected entity, then We separated them and We made every living thing out of water? Will they not then believe?

 

[teachyourself]

what if now i tell you that a part of the theory of evolution was already mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago
t
he

All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent

angels???? really???

Right after this verse, the Quran speaks about human creation and natural phenomena. This seems to be an interesting correlation.

i do not see that here, you have made a mistake, please check

35:1 - [All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.
35:2 - Whatever Allah grants to people of mercy - none can withhold it; and whatever He withholds - none can release it thereafter. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
35:3 - O mankind, remember the favor of Allah upon you. Is there any creator other than Allah who provides for you from the heaven and earth? There is no deity except Him, so how are you deluded?

 

[teachyourself]

(Quran 29:20) Say: "Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated.

^This verse is a direct commandment to humans telling us to travel the Earth and observe how creation was brought forth. The funny thing is Darwin unknowingly followed the commandment in this verse and discovered how (the mechanism) creation formed. This verse implies that by travelling through the Earth, you would see the mechanism of creation! Darwin has unknowingly followed that commandment and has discovered how creation began, from his travels he published a revolutionary book titled “The Origin of Species”.

or it could quite simply mean just walk around and look at the "miracle" of allah .... for idiots living in a desert idiotic simple statements like that were enough of a miracle, moon splits, winged horses, that is what those uneducated morons were wowed by